I dont necessarily have all the answers there. I'm not going to do anything drastic, but, goodness gracious! Terri, when I first learned the doctrine I instantly knew of its truthfulness and then went into a pretty strong state of depression for some of the same reasons youve mentioned. Your peaceful witness strengthens my own. I love you all and am thankful for the puzzle piece of truth each of you has to offer in my journey. February 28, 2017 in General Discussions. Until I meet you. Though I was a member of the church since I was young, I can relate to your experience. But now when I read verses like this one in 3 Nephi 28:7 and at that day they were to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens. I have greater understanding with the doctrine of multiple probations. He does not want people to wake up to who they really are. Under the doctrine of multiple probations it makes it fair that those without the . As I have sought to understand my past before this life, and And it is all possible only in and through the merits of our Savior, the Son. One example of this is the multiple scripture references to go no more out. church. 31 DRAFT Acknowledgements The San Bernardino County Homeless Partnership wishes to thank all the individuals and organizations that contributed to the preparation, implementation, and success of the 2023 Point-In-Time Count and Subpopulation Survey. Multiple mortal probations - MormonWiki.org Great questions and important ones to ponder on. Im so grateful for you, Greg, Matt and Julie for your conviction and witnesses of the Truth! Even when I was small, I felt that some spirits come to be tested and other (superior) spirits come to test! Eric, thank you so much for this wonderful essay. speaking, writing, arithmetic, or who have spiritual gifts such as being Multiple Mortal Probations - The Fellowship of Christ But what is meant spiritually can be read in a physical way too. I do not believe I am alone in these sentiments. Well done, Eric. Denver Snuffer Jr. - Wikipedia Blessings to all seekers. I remember feeling a heavy emotion even as a very young person that I would now call despair, when I first learned this. It challenged some of their traditional Christian beliefs. The Folly of Multiple Mortal Probations - BOOK OF MORMONISM Thanks for your kind thoughts Traci, and for your believing heart. Some awesome people have been excommunicated. God bless you for speaking truth. "And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. I started to realize that multiple probations is one of the big themes in the scriptures. By Thank you!! This doctrine tastes delicious to me, and I glory in my God for His omniscience and almighty power to bring about our salvation and exultation in wonder and mysterious ways. (Some received only Godhood.) [1] are now throwing the baby out with the bathwater in what has been deemed a I do not condemn those who feel this way. My friend Julie and I have discussed this doctrine openly on podcasts, and I have written about it on my personal blog. Some parts of it make sense, but Ive never wanted to think too deeply about it because it made me feel such sadness to think I would be reborn somewhere else and lose my husband and kids, if they were to go somewhere else. Essentially, we are private individuals freely exercising the right to discuss doctrinal opinions, and to bear witness of things we feel to be true. I cant mention this topic to my family, friends, or post about it on any platform, without incredible hurtful persecution. Again, I thank you, Greg, Matt and Julie for having the courage to stand and to testify. He wrote that Joseph stated, "Now the history of Josephus in Speaking of angels came down and took themselves wives of the daughters of men, See Geneses 6 Chapter 1-2, verses. I see that I am at the beginning of a long path of understanding. Thanks for sharing this interesting history. Eternal Lives, Past Lives and Reincarnation - Latter-day Commentary In LDS church, what is the difference between formal probation I love how Heavenly Fathers plan for his children is so loving and allows us to learn and grow in our own way and at our own pace. There is an answer. It is a fairly new idea to me but seems entirely plausible. Those who join are in serious jeopardy of losing their membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and also their eternal life, or exaltation, in the Celestial Kingdom of God. It is uplifting to the soul and brings me closer to Christ. That was a Wow moment! Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. This clarification is very helpful. It j u s t makes sense. The Bible is ripe with evidence in this belief. It felt right to me but the opposition was so strong and vociferous I proceeded with caution. What follows is a thesis on the controversial doctrine from the 19th century referred to as multiple mortal probations, which fell out of favor along with Adam-God. Although we probably should distinguish between MMP as a doctrine of reincarnation for the telestial kingdom from MMP as part of Adam God (the idea of a progression from mortal, to Christ, to Father, to falling as Adam, to return to Father). Multiple Mortal Probations Article - LDS Freedom Forum I thought I had reached the bottom of the rabbit holeI guess it goes deeper still. 2.3M+ acres, 1 in every ~550 acres of private land. I thought it was supposed to be turtles all the way down? How can eternal progression happen in one lifetime on this earth. To go no more out finally made sense; Old Souls (and we have have all known them or ARE one ) finally made sense. One of the things that became obviously clear to me is the purpose and reason for title names. Peace, enlightenment, and hope are wonderful gifts. The Mormon belief that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three separate people who are one in their mission to bring about the salvation of all mankind. MARIA, Your email address will not be published. Nevertheless, when I first read, and continued to read, SO many quotes from the early Brethren/leadership of the church, pieces started to come together. It is truly beautiful, for how can we grow without those who are willing to play those opposing roles? ??? and forms participate in forms) This form of Elijahness (which is to be distinguished from the individual Elijah) is reincarnated in that many individuals can participate in this form. I was cautious at first with excitement, but, put it on a shelf. In January of 1846, just over a year and a half after the death of JS, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball ordained each other to act as a savior. Thanks for sharing your witness. The Item #6a. To my sadness, and repulsion, I have recently seen how this Multiple Mortal Probations Article - Page 9 - LDS Freedom Forum Joseph Smith and multiple mortal probations - Reincarnation Forum In this world of learning I can progress to 6th grade, and then continue on through junior high and high school and graduate. Dorthea, with what youve written, Im embarrassed to say I hadnt considered your insights on baptism in the context as a symbol for MP, but I feel you are wise to have picked up on it. For example, Apostle Heber C. Kimball compared several days of a man continuously working on a project to several successive probations of the same person working on a project: nature. In the light of the son every person is getting a form, visible to everyone around as they are becoming visible themselves the darkness will fadeas only the light has the power to vanish the darkness. Melanie Gibb Says Chad Daybell Was Doing 'Satan's Work' | Law & Crime Multiple Mortal Probations Part II | Reading Amazing, some of the stuff they came up with. I want to move forward and progress to the next grade. This implications started with JS' apparent teaching that God the Father was a Christ during his mortal probation. I must continually ask myself the question, Who am I to believe that Gods work is dependent on my understanding, teaching and attempting to enlighten the unenlightened? I must also daily keep in mind my own nothingness and utter reliance on The Savior of The World (2 Nephi 4). DRAFT. We also know that there is an opposite to all things. dark in so short a time clearly left an impression on Moses. perhaps the first example of this idea. He wrote, "Jesus Christ spoke in this manner; I do as my Father before me did. Having been so moved upon in the process of discovery, my friend Greg and I compiled a book called Multiple Probations which is a compilation of interesting history, supportive scriptures, and informative quotes from early authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This implications started with JS' apparent teaching that God the Father was a Christ during his mortal probation. One of the questions that has bothered me since I was very young is: How did it all start? Besides the Laub's record of JS' comment on the Holy Ghost in his summary of the Sermon on the Grove, there is an additional JS comment recorded by Franklin D. Richards in August, 1843, not that long before the King Follett Sermon. JS taught many times that Michael stood next to Christ in authority, and he also taught that Elohim was the head of the Gods (i.e. Ensign, October 2017, 64-71. Adam consider to be an incomplete version of the Plan of Salvation by my faith. It explains how many in the premortal council of heaven had become noble and great (Abraham 3:22). thousands of years for this day when Christians would awaken to the doctrine of You know that the LDS church doesn't even believe in past lives, or "multiple probations", and there is a long list of other problematic ideas that Chad, Julie, Lori and the rest cooked up that is not in accordance to LDS doctrine. I thank you! Is she the main source? But, I know this is absolutely trueAnd thank the Stalwart!! The group is True LDS Deep Doctrines. : And one lifetime is more than enough, if that lifetime lasts for eternity! Thanks for responding! From the above we can imply that JS believed that all Gods had served as Christs, that all heirs of the Celestial kingdom would serve as Christs as part of their progression from exaltation to exaltation, and that the Holy Ghost would also serve as a Christ. Hi. Thank you for sharing! He taught Church history and doctrine for many years at Brigham Young University.He was also the director of the Latter-day Saint historical collection in the Harold B. Lee Library.. 2:21. wasteth the days of his probation, 2 Ne. Men and Women who Valiantly bring this (Exalting Knowledge) to those who wish to ascend. Thanks! I believe with all my heart in the Ninth Article of Faith that God will yet reveal many great and important truths pertaining to the Kingdom of God. I believe that I am a child of a God, a child of a loving Heavenly Father and Mother with a divine heritage. Likewise the use of the term "savior" is more vague than I think you are using it. DAY 10 | LIVE UPDATES: Alex Cox's widow says Chad and Lori Daybell This all adds up to only one conclusion in my mind, there is a way and a plan, and the fact that so many do not achieve their potential in a short life span, means there must be another time and place to prove themselves and the Doctrine of Multiple Probations is the only doctrine I see that provides a fair, and merciful means by which mankind may improve themselves line up line, precept upon precept enough to eventually become perfected in their own generations and exalted in all levels of Heaven. LDS church on Gilgul or multiple mortal probations. It answers many of my questions, How could a god (Lucifer) fall from grace, how could the Savior become who he was in one lifetime, how could I ever make it to the celestial kingdom if my partner wasnt willing to live the gospel. Not sure if that group is still active anymore. Multiple Probations: A Lost Doctrine Remembered Aug 11, 2022. by Eric Smith . Thank you for your wonderful expositions on such a beautiful and hidden part of the plan. In my experience the most important point of the discussion here, which I believe to be among earnest seekers of truth, is being lightly treated by those on this forum but clearly illustrated in your comment. through contrasts. LDS church on Gilgul or multiple mortal probations When I first came upon the doctrine of multiple probations I said There is NO WAY I wanted to live another life like the one I was living now not that its been horrible but very Hard. For example, our book on multiple probations was an attempt to show that there is substantial support for multiple probations in the scriptures and in the words of authorities. Maybe Shirly Mclaine was right. I feel like this life is equivalent to a year in school and I am in 5th grade. I am a very simple man, not elequent in speech, but my witness of the Truth if it is very strong and it is deep and brings much peace to my heart. 9 Things You Didn't Know About the FLDS Church - ABC News I don't deny one can read it that way, but the more natural reading is that in his first mortality the Father was Christ. I can see that in the spiritual world it goes way beyond any earthly graduate school I can imagine. When I was introduced to this topic of multiple mortal probations several years ago it just made sense. But Icanlook upon thee in the natural I dont feel that explanation is accurate or complete. despite my human weakness. I shelved it for sometime until I was lead back to studying it a year later. One of the most effective teaching tools for me comes Another point on this, it is said in the bible that men like Adam, Methuselah, and Enoch were men who became perfect in their generation. Further, Mormon doctrine asserts that people can become gods. I realize that is heretical and blasphemous to TBM ears, butit makes way more sense to me than what the church proposes. But there is some mystery here. Whatever the case, I am certain that the most important factor about what relationships will look like in the eternities is agency. the doctrine that has circulated these recent events. It is the explanation for why some of those I know and love His response changed my eternal perspective forever when the voice of the Lord spoke to me and said I Am not in the business of destroying my children, nor are they ever lost to me for they are mine. Then I saw a scripture pop into my mind which, when I read, took on a whole new meaning and suddenly restored the hope to me that the words the Lord gave to me were not only true, they are openly witnessed in our own scriptures. were transfigured before him. Richards wrote, "Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.". Thank you sincerely for sharing this with us! And as the head of our creation under the Father, it is Jesus who will be head in the next creation the way the father is. What surprised me was the fact that it resonated with something in me even as it was a total new doctrine to me. true, it should only come through certain lines of authority. Please know that I am sincere in my question and am not trying to be argumentative or contrary. We seem to continually become more and more of who and what we are. I agree, in part. to use samsung voice input you need to allow the appear on top permission in settings s21 Lori, and her husband Chad, allegedly murdered Lori's children "JJ" Vallow, 7, Tylee . We have multiple opportunities for learning and growth, and it provides a way for those who play a contrasting role for our learning to not be lost if they chose to turn back to the light. Cristina Rosetti says there are groups of Mormon fundamentalists who believe in multiple probations, living several lives to reach exaltation. As for me, I will do my best to honor the rules of these forums. Latest from Saturday LDS General Conference : Speakers discuss mental health, pandemic, church attendance and obedience. I know the doctrine has come to me, and indeed to many hundreds (if not While I may not be able to answer these and other questions, the merciful God of second chances I have since come to know and believe in. I am he. Thank you Kim. Joseph Smith and Multiple Mortal Probations, Apologetics, Law (not licensed), Reading (Re: 2nd Coming of Late), Writing (Published: Deseret News, SL Trib, New Era, Utah Peace Officer), http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/shirley-maclaine-tells-film-set-stories-line-article-1.2545803. Joseph Smith and Multiple Mortal Probations - Page 7 - General I see and feel Gods mercy and love for his children in the doctrine. Multiple Probations - A Divine Doctrine - Doctrinal Essays The thought that there could be no progression after judgment felt to contrast Exactly Geri! D&C 132:22-25 can easily be interpreted that way: 22For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. I believe that the greatest truths will be met with the greatest opposition. Perhaps Im misunderstanding. It is exciting to be on the earth again in these last days and to participate in the ongoing Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That being said I am personally bound by the admonition given in countless times and ways throughout scripture and most clearly in the Doctrine and Covenants 63: 64. Big Florida development project likely worth $40-80B in 30-60 years. as insights and spiritual impressions have come, I have not wanted to share the Mahalo for your light, your love for truth, and your love for us all! Im glad to see youre getting your own comfort and witness of the doctrine! By . a new area shows as that there has to be also an end of another time also a wording of that multiple times.. or multiple probations.. Here is the relevant portion: they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. Adam-God can then be seen as based on JS' teachings and the endowment, with a simple fundamental misunderstanding on the identity of Micheal in the Godhead. The purpose of this essay is to reason from the scriptures to promote an understanding of how God has worked in the past on these points. "when brother Pratt went back last fall, and published the Revelation concerning the plurality of wives; it was thought there was no other cat to let out. What seems to be missing is the escape clause to such a definitive end. Thank you Eric. These secret teachings coincided with teachings by Joseph that either explicity stated or implied that previously resurrected beings, essentially from a prior earth, could interact with mortals on this earth. Kim, that is a very insightful point that would seem to be a witness Of truth hidden in plain sight that if reincarnation is a false doctrine, that there must be an opposite, which I feel my spirit was first introduce to in the temple. The thrill is gone. Thank you for your effort, love, kindness, and being free with all the things that you think about and reveal to us. Most Mormons don't even know about this rule. When I first heard of it, it made perfect sense to me and was exhilarating to my soul. it is hard to accept ideas that have not been touted over pulpits or publicized So beautiful and strong words that I saw citated by you and Greg this dynamic of dying and be born again. In the Nauvoo period, Joseph Smith began believed in and secretly taught something akin to reincarnation. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. The strongest argument for an A/G like doctrine in Nauvoo to my eyes is William Law's expose of the potential of God to fall. And a gate symbolizes a new aera of time. Callings Sharing the Gospel Volunteer and Serve Temples Family History. Then meeting you several years ago in Idaho, i feel our paths have crossed before. There is a real fear of being labeled an apostate for believing these messages and for even having had my own experiences. For many I don't want to say any blessing or whatever is wrong but these were the early days of the Restoration and I think some of these people wanted to take any new concept they heard and run with it, e.g., stuff like blessing people that they will get translated to Kolob and whatnot. Scriptures General Conference Come, Follow Me Gospel Library Media Library Music Library Life Help Inspiration. It's kind of like how in our times people will say stuff like, "What if the Holy Ghost is Heavenly Mother?" We all have to die to go further. Couldnt we just come again and again until we got it right? If you have already answered this question in a post or book, could you direct me to it. Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when this fireside address . As I pondered the gravity of that situation seeing the effects of disobedience in other families and in my own I prayed asking Heavenly Father how he could let so many of His children fall and be cast off. Address given at the University of Utah Institute of Religion January 10, 1982. That is a possibility, but it's more likely that his late teachings that can be interpreted as reincarnation are exactly that, considering how many of his contemporaries understood that he did teach it some form or another. the greater majority of the worlds population have patiently been waiting for Even that though is pretty vague and could easily be taken in terms ofAlma 42:25. He was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Also, I defer to board rules and won't discuss the specifics of the endowment, but there is a very strong implication in there that, at the very least, resurrected beings can shed their resurrected forms somehow and experience another mortal probation. This can be meant spiritually or physically this two sides mirror each other. The more I know the more I am constrained to announce The Glory of God and my own unworthiness before He Who Is Mighty To Save. I continue to find supporting evidence in scripture and temple ordinances. That this doctrine will promote casualness and laziness. I said, Wait a little. I did not reject it, but I could not understand it.[a] This is one of my favorite examples of how to receive new concepts with an open heart. Details mapped state by state. Officially, Mormons are supposed to be almost entirely vegetarian. Multiple probations is not part of the doctrine of the Church, neither are we claiming that it is. One of the purposes of this book is to outline basic doctrines and explain how missionaries should teach them. I also believe that they want the best of everything for me and that I can become like them. 2. Thank you for reading this essay. Thank you Eric! Each new day begins with the Sun (Son), providing a fresh beginning from the previous days follies and experiences, and yet, we continue to build upon those previous experiences. Praise God and Praise the Lord! The LDS church teaches the Pauline principle of many degrees in heaven. Your email address will not be published. With this possible equivalency between Micheal and the Holy Ghost in mind and JS' probable belief that all were to serve as Holy Ghosts prior to being Christs, JS likely believed the Nauvoo endowment was a representation of one stage of what each heir of the celestial kingdom was to pass through in their climb up the ladder of exaltation. When I first heard of this I had some doubts, but as I read your words they ring true to my soul and it feels right. We often use this scripture to support the concept of a pre-mortal life, but we would have to assume that it is possible to commit a sin while there in a spirit state. we are talking about multiple mortal probations that are all human.] I converted to the church in my early twenties when i received a witness of the book of mormon and of Joseph Smith. Eventually, a soul could achieve relative perfection and rise to the level of becoming a savior for others. I do not believe I am alone in these sentiments. Thank you, I have been pondoring over weather I should share this, by no means am I a visionary like Julie and many others but on December 7th 2018 my Dad passed away at 100 yrs and 4months, my fathers passing opened up a portal to a degree that allowed me to communicate in a small way with those in the Spirit Word, what transpired startled me at first but the experience lasted for weeks. San Bernardino County 2023 Point in Time Count Report Michael Quinn documented it as follows: By the time of his death in 1844, Joseph Smith had also reversed his prior rejection of the Cabala's doctrine of "transmigration of the souls." So, the basis of this conclusion is baseless. (I havent read everything what was posted about that themeso I am sorry if I repeat things that you already mentioned.). Probation, Probationary - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Just think of the fun rides in life one could take though Ken! I am viewed as someone who dares to imply that I have had experiences and spiritual gifts other than just being led by the spirit through thoughts and ideas. News. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. I began to see and feel clearly that my agency was being squashed and that their was almost a secret society within the church of people who felt similar but were too afraid to speak up. widowsmitereport.wordpress. I love your island perspective, which I hadnt considered. Love you guys. Because LDS leaders sometimes refer to this life, before our death and eventual resurrection, as our "mortal probation," based on the scriptural term "probationary state," Daybell and Vallow call their belief in reincarnation "multiple mortal probations." The only doctrine that Julie specifically mentions her stake president having a problem with is "multiple probations," also called multiple mortal probations. over the airways and fiber lines of our media sources. peacefully and sweetly. Do you have a direct link? I shouldn't have looked at this thread so late at night, because now I won't be able to delineate all my thoughts on it. I should clarify that I approach this issue froma historical perspective. Answer (1 of 5): The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a book called Preach My Gospel, which is an official guide for missionaries. Nor do I believe that a full understanding of Who I Am, in all the Eternal facets of my Being, qualifies me to take responsibility for doing Fathers work in somehow translating this knowledge to another.
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